Ann Coulter Proving Once Again Conservative Christians are Racists…

coulterhandsup.jpg 

When is it going to stop? That is to say, when are television and radio outlets going to ban Ann Coulter? Hasn’t the insanity gone far enough and hasn’t this idiot offended enough people? There must be a point where a decision maker somewhere must look at Ann Coulter and realize that the point of diminishing returns has definitely been reached.

This time, Coulter fired at the Jews saying that they should be “perfected” by accepting Jesus and America would be better off if everyone was a Christian.

Perfected in the image of the Christian ideal? Since when are Christians representative of perfection? Most Christians I know are inflexible racists, much like Coulter. They claim they are peaceful and compassionate, yet more have been murdered in the name of Christ than for all other reasons combined through recorded history. In the modern era, Christians have demonstrated their perfection by burning churches, dragging people to death behind pick-up trucks, lynching innocent people simply because their skin color was incorrect, starting wars based on monstrous lies, and murdering abortion doctors. Evidently Coulter is too busy picking out the latest and greatest push-up bra for her next schizophrenic television appearance, rather than engaging in some light historical reading or looking at the paper once in a while. 

A national Catholic organization also criticized Coulter’s remarks. 

“I’m just dumbfounded that a Christian would even say this in America,” said Chris Korzen, executive director of Catholics United.  Korzen also said it was “particularly dangerous” to be mixing religious conversion with discussions of what it means to be an American, and he said Coulter’s comments reminded him of John McCain referring to the US as a “Christian nation.”

This is not what the founding fathers wanted, no matter how many times fundamentalist Christians try to ram it down our throats. Anyone who has read American history knows better. The problem is I think most conservatives don’t read at all.

“I don’t believe I read anything in the constitution about Jesus Christ dying for our sins,” Korzen said, and he is right. Much like other lunatics, including Ron Paul, Coulter believes that this nation  is inextricably tied to Christianity and that all other denominations are basically inferior, irrelevant, or criminal in their purpose. These fools have conveniently forgotten that the fundamental reason why this continent was settled by Western Europeans was a direct result of religious persecution in their home countries! These comments by Coulter simply reinforce her ignorance and unbridled hubris.

 “We just want Jews to be perfected, as they say,” Coulter said.

Speaking to Donny Deutsch, on the magazine show, The Big Idea, she went on to say, “I don’t want you being offended by this. This is what Christians consider themselves, because our testament is the continuation of your testament. You know that. So we think Jews go to heaven. I mean, Rev. Jerry Falwell himself said that, but you have to follow laws. Ours is ‘Christ died for our sins,'” Coulter said. “We consider ourselves perfected Christians. For me to say that for you to become a Christian is to become a perfected Christian is not offensive at all.”

I’m having trouble just following that statement based on Coulter’s incoherence. Is she saying that Jews must follow Christian doctrine while their alive? She said she believes that Jews go to heaven anyways, so why are they less ‘perfect’ again?  

Another Catholic group blasted Coulter’s remarks, saying they “show profound ignorance of both religion and American history.” “Ms. Coulter embarrasses Christians with her arrogance and insensitivity,” said Alexia Kelley, Executive Director of Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good, and she does not speak for those Christians and Jews who struggle together every day for justice and the common good.”

Ann Coulter’s latest insensitive, ignorant and racist comments are indicative of the latent lack of intelligence that plagues all fundamental Christians. Most thinking people are reasonably familiar with American history as it encompasses politics, science, culture, and war, along with the internal dynamic of tolerance that has kept this country peaceful and free for over 200 years. This continual attack by Coulter and other zealots who anoint themselves as the ‘perfect’ and the righteous, as well as experts in the area of Western Judeo-Christian values, are the very same people who are working to destroy the fabric of tolerance within our culture. Much the same way they accuse liberals of being secular humanists, who try to use the education system and the media to destroy Christian values, Coulter and the Christian posse of the ignorant, have a goal of transforming America through its education system, by taking control of colleges, textbook publishers and the media, with the help of conservative state legislatures and the Bush administration. This is evident in a recent push by some Southern school districts to supplement or replace Darwinian teachings with curriculum referred to as ‘Intelligent Design’, and a vote just days ago by the FCC to further relax restrictions on monopolization of media markets by gigantic conservative corporate interests – many of whom are these same racist Christians. 

Christians are deliberately trying to put a strangle hold on our culture by brainwashing youth and destroying their sense of cultural and religious tolerance. They are people who fervently believe, with a religious zeal, in a radically different worldview than the one in which average Americans believe, and one in which this nation was founded and which has underpinned every bit of its moral and economic success.

This is a cultural war between the informed and the ignorant. Coulter’s view is based on faith in a divine creator, and a moral imperative to love and obey Christian doctrine at all costs, even if that means burning the American village to acheive that.

The other view is based on rejection of hatred and ignorance along with tolerance for the views and beliefs of others. People who follow this other world view do not pray on the desperate, not not kill those who disagree with their religious or philosophical views, are not racists, and attempt to advance American culture through mutual understanding, instead of trying to impose the often bizarre and violent teaching of the bible upon us.

In my opinion, Jesus would be embarrassed and appalled by Ann Coulter.

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Posted on October 12, 2007, in Education Policy, Law, Media, Politics, Religion and tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 38 Comments.

  1. Congratulations, you and the rest of the mainstream media have officially taken Ann Coulter out of context! Now you’ve said that Conservative Christians are racists, which is also not true. Wow, I’m surprised at how ignorant the so-called “informed” can be.

  2. I believe that the World would be a better place if everyone thought like me too, and so do you. That is to say, you don’t care about how I think, but you would be happier if I thought like you, and that Ann Coulter thought like you.

    Living in a tolerant society does not mean living in a society where no one ever criticises anyone else, but rather living in a society that everyone is free to express their ideas regardless of how different or popular they are. People get to be shocking, ironic or offensive if they want to be.

    In reality what you are doing by writing this hit piece on Christians is actually worse than what Ann Coulter did, because Ann Coulter never blamed the Jews for anything, while you have indicted every single christian for every autrocity ever committed by anyone claiming to be a christian since the beginning of time. Indeed you yourself are more bigotted than Ann Coulter.

  3. Not everyone agrees with this woman that is a conservative. Yes, I admit, I used to be amused by her insane attacks against the left but now that she is attacking her own party’s candidates I’m starting to turn sour when I hear her name. She’s smart, witty and controversial. She could be a big name for Republicans but instead she has become one more thing that brings the party down.

  4. This is truely an example that you get screwed by the jewish print and jewish tv media if you express your religion .Her statement is true about non christians.

  5. I don’t think Ann knew what she was saying. If she did it didn’t come across to us.

    FYI – I know courts aren’t supposed to legislate, but …

    From the ruling in Church of the Holy Trinity v. U.S.
    “Our laws and institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extent, our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian

  6. MJ "revoltingpawn"

    Wow can’t believe all this support for Ann Coulter in the comments. Seems there is a market for she-male personalities who are obnoxious, loud, and, uninformed in TV news.

    For your information Braden and Gary we are neither a mainstream or Jewish news outlet but thanks for slapping labels on us so we can fit into your preconceived notions.

    While maybe my partner was little hard on conservative Christians and placed them all in the same boat – think have missed his main point. While Ann Coulter has the right to believe and say anything she wants why does FOX, MSNBC, etc. feel the need to keep giving her a platform to spout her ignorance? They could find someone with similar viewpoints who do not come of so crazy and hateful of all things and people. Then again maybe she really is representative of most conservative Christian folk?

  7. I’d say that virtually all Christians believe the things she said. So if you want to disparage all of Christendom, that’s your right. But I’d say that’d be more ignorant than Ann Coulter could ever be.

  8. MJ "revoltingpawn"

    Braden…

    Since you label yourself a southern conservative from your blog doubt you can fully understand the numerous and diverse groups worldwide that call themselves Christians. It may surprise you that “bible belt” conservative Christians are a small minority of the world Christian population. The Church of Christ that you say belong to is even a smaller sub-group that has a believe system that most “Mainline” Christens simply do not believe in. Readers feel free to Google the Church of Christ… So for you make statements on what of all Christians think is kinda ridiculous and also goes against the many “real” Christian Church leaders who have condemned her statements. Ann Coulter is going to hell don’t you know?

  9. A quick shout out to all of you far right Christian wackos who are defending Ann Coulter…I was raised Christian, and I don’t think Jews are imperfect or anyone else imperfect for that matter, because we are all imperfect. Jesus taught that we are all God’s children, even ignorant racists and Jew bashers like some of the commenters on the Coulter story I guess. My post sounds better with everyone of your hateful and blatantly racist comments. Please, keep it up by all means. I love it when fundamental Christians contradict the bible so eloquently and make asses out of themselves in mass.

    Ann Coulter continues to spray her manure all over us because of sheep like you – the blind loyalists. By the way, in case you don’t realize it, most Christians don’t even come close to your narrow minded mantra. Of course how would you know, you’re too busy defending evil.

    I suggest you stop looking at Ann’s breasts and maybe read the bible or perhaps the history of Chritianity, before you aspire to comment on it. You just look foolish and silly like conservative Christians tend to do.

  10. Wow, you’re more ignorant than I thought, MJ. Just because I’m a southerner, I know nothing about how the rest of the world looks at Christianity. And apparently, according to you, I can’t possibly understand the rest of Christendom because I belong to a “small subgroup.” Obviously, you know very little about the Church of Christ as well. It might surprise you that many of Coulter’s statements have Biblical context. I’m amazed that you actually think you understand Christianity because you clearly do not.

  11. MJ "revoltingpawn"

    Braden…

    What I said since you belong to a Church that most Christians don’t share the same beliefs with you are in no position to speak for all Christians. It’s a fact that most “Mainstream” Christians would not agree with Ann Clouter’s views.

    She is a crazy person – have you never seen her on TV? When most people rant and speak incoherently like she does in public someone calls the police and they drop them off at a hospital. I understand you agree with her because you both run in the same radical minority Christian circles. Don’t pretend your views are the same as all Christians.

    Hitler made a lot of statements that had Biblical context so whats your point in that regard?

    I looked up your Church of Christ and really liked the part read about how believe the Bible is historically correct. Umm in case you didn’t know – no it is not…

    I never claimed to understand Christianity despite being raised a Christian and attending Sunday school more then once. I consider myself in recovery… I do know all Religions and Churches are created by man and not God. Little truth for you to end this rant.

  12. Patrick Britton,

    It’s refreshing to see a sensible conservative who sees Coulter for what she really is. I have many conservative friends and they feel as you do. There are no bounds with her. It seems as though she just wants her mug on T.V. and nothing more.

  13. Perfected in the image of the Christian ideal? Since when are Christians representative of perfection? Most Christians I know are inflexible racists, much like Coulter. They claim they are peaceful and compassionate, yet more have been murdered in the name of Christ than for all other reasons combined through recorded history.

    Two quick points:

    1. Perfected does not mean flawless. Look at the freakin Bible. (Perfected means having accepted God, and, through Christ, having had one’s sins atoned.)
    2. Um, have you not heard of Stalin? Hitler? Pol Pot? Yeah, I’m sorry, but atheists win it when it comes to murdering people. I’m calling B.S. on your “Christianity kills people” thing. Heck, I haven’t even gone into the (probably billions) killed from abortion.

  14. MJ "revoltingpawn"

    theobromophile…

    Hitler was atheist? Not really..

    http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

    All quotes from what he said himself.

    One example quote for you…

    “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

    -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

    Sorry their has not been a billions of abortions that is just wrong…

    Let’s see a little quick research…
    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5511a1.htm

    Hmmm… Legal abortions even have even been on the decline since 1990. Don’t you hate when the facts get in the way?

    You have any idea how Christianity spread across the world? Basically convert or we will kill you. While religious persecution is not uncommon it’s just Christians have been really good at it.

    Leaders of nations going to War always invoke God and their beliefs to rally the people. Easiest way to get people to kill other people is to make them think they are on God’s side.

  15. You have any idea how Christianity spread across the world? Basically convert or we will kill you. While religious persecution is not uncommon it’s just Christians have been really good at it.

    Baloney. Actually, the original Christians were persecuted, killed, mauled, and otherwise tortured. Remember, the Roman Empire mandated that its subjects worship the Emperor as a god in human form. That didn’t really sit well with Christians, for some reason.

    Christians are a pretty peaceful lot. Unless you are going to run through the stats to compare Christian wars with Muslim, atheist (Hi, Stalin!), and pagan killings, you don’t have an argument.

    You have rhetoric, but it’s not facts,

    —-

    As for abortions being on the decline since 1990 – oh my. Yeah, marginally. There are 1.3 million abortions annually in the US alone.

    —-

    As for Hitler – oh dear. Here goes:
    http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

    Hitler was a master at subtlety. He pretended to be vegetarian to align himself with Gandhi (and under doctor’s orders); Christianity was another way of making himself appear legitimate.

    However, even if he was Christian, he certainly was not acting as a Christian in perpetrating the Holocaust. I’m an engineer, but that doesn’t mean that my choices in shoes (heels? flats? darling kitten heels?) is made solely because of my education.

    The Jews, according the Bible, are God’s chosen people. You can’t be a Christian and murder them, at least not if you are consistent.

  16. theobromophile,

    Christians peaceful?

    Bush ‘The Christian’, attacked a country in a preemptive action for the first time in American history. The civilian death toll is estimated as high as 100,000, not to mention thousands of American troops!

    Have you forgotten about torturing prisoners?

    How about militant Christians that murder abortion doctors for kicks?

    The pogroms of the Spanish Inquisition, The Crusades, The Salem Witch Trials? Are you kidding?

    More people have been killed in the name of your Christian God than all other reasons combined!

    Christians are inherently violent and have been for 1500 years.

    As for Hitler, much like Coulter, you can be a Christian and a racist. Hitler drove his racism to the logical and evil conclusion of extermination. I doubt Ann Coulter sheds any tears over Jewish deaths based on her comments.

  17. theobromophile,

    By the way, most condescending people who comment on this blog always seem to use little quips within their text like “oh goodness” and “oh dear” when their argument is untenable and they are trying, unsuccessfully, to perch upon some pseudo-intellectual mantel and pass faulty judgement upon those below. ‘Can’ the veiled sarcasm. I’m not impressed.

  18. How many doctors have been killed by Christians? Even, assuming for argument, that Christians do this, you’ve got what, a dozen people in 20 years?

    Salem Witch Trials killed 20 people. Okay, we’re up to about 30 people.

    Bush ‘The Christian’, attacked a country in a preemptive action for the first time in American history. The civilian death toll is estimated as high as 100,000, not to mention thousands of American troops!

    1. Check your facts. We attacked Germany in preemptive action, correct? 🙂
    2. Bush is a Christian. That does not mean that he was acting in the name of Christianity, which is your argument.
    3. Rape rooms? Kiddies in prison? Remember that not-nice stuff about Iraq? Oh, but let’s bitch about Bush, because he’s Christian.

    Christians are inherently violent and have been for 1500 years.

    Oh dear. Here we go again. While I respect the fact that this is your blog, can you offer any facts to back up that statement about inherent violence? After all, far more Christians oppose abortion peacefully than do non-Christians; Catholic Charities and similar organisations do their best to improve their communities; nuns aren’t exactly violent; and a lot of Christians protest the death penalty.

    Christianity is not inherently violent. You’re thinking of Islam, which is all about a guy who personally beheaded 600-900 people and raped a 9-year-old. Jesus’s famous line: Turn the other cheek. Know each other by your love.

    There is nothing in the New Testament which condones violence. Yes, some people who to to mass are violent; so are those who don’t go.

    More people have been killed in the name of your Christian God than all other reasons combined!

    NOT TRUE! See, even Bush wasn’t acting in the name of God. He also got Congressional approval. 🙂 Did you forget that part?

    Stalin, baby. 100 million dead in gulags. Abortion: 45 million since 1973 and counting. Once you’ve told me how Christians, in the name of God, have killed 150 milllion people, we’ll talk. (Then I get to start pointing out everyone else – the Japanese in WWII, the murderous Chinese, Pol Pot, oh, let’s not even go into the human rights abuses of the Taliban, genocide in Darfur, Sierra Leone……..)

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t it the Christians who began the abolition movement? Yeah, those evil, violent Chistians wanted to free people.

    Here’s a little thing for you, so you can have this thing I like to call “data:”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_toll

    Looks like Christianity isn’t the leading killer of people.

    Now, you can say that I’m not intelligent or whatever, but that isn’t an argument. I could say the same for you, then we are at a stalement. Instead of attacking me as a person, why not introduce some evidence? I’ve thrown up the number of 150 million (abortion + Stalin); can you match that? By your own standards, we must be talking about things done in the name of the Christian God.

    Oh, please let me throw in about 100 million from the Arab (i.e. Islamic) slave trade. 🙂 Please. It’s just too easy, I know, but it destroys your point so beautifully.

  19. 1. Nope. germany declared war on the U.S. after the Pearl harbor attack. Check it out.

    2. Bush has said several times, and I am paraphrasing if I may, that he is guided by Christian principles and he feels it is his duty bestowed upon him by his creator to wage war on those he feels are a threat to the U.S. If that’s not holy war rhetoric, I’m not sure what else qualifies.

    3. Whose defending Hussein and his dictatorial madness? There were rape rooms and torutre in Iraq as well. Are we to sink to that level in the name of Christiandom and preservation of Western culture? What happened to the U.S. operating above such barbaric measures? What happened to the U.S. standing as the beacon of freedom and hope where you couldn’t be hauled off with no trial and held indefinitely like Hussein’s Iraq or Stalin’s Russia, who you seem to cling to?

    Fact: Most states in the ‘bible belt’ endorse the death penalty. In fact, in states where there are more Christians per capita, the death penalty is used most.

    Fact: The New Testament really does not condone violence, however I never claimed that it did. I was citing non-biblical historical events that were ‘inherently’ violent. No question about it.

    Fact: Most historians have Christianity related deaths through history estimated history at well over 100 million. I think that qualifies.

    Fact: The Christians were indeed instrumental in starting the abolitionist movement, however it was the same Christians in Westerm Europe who started the slave trade and built the ‘Golden Triangle’. Given how things have turned out between blacks and whites in America over the past 200 years, I’d say things really haven’t worked out all that well – would you?

    Fact: Wikopedia has been largely discredited as a primary source of accurate information by most scholars.

    Fact: I never said you were not intelligent – not once. I’m just questioning your facts.

    We can keep going if you wish…

  20. MJ "revoltingpawn"

    theobromophile….

    Your replies have seemed to strengthen my arguments…

    “Baloney. Actually, the original Christians were persecuted, killed, mauled, and otherwise tortured. Remember, the Roman Empire mandated that its subjects worship the Emperor as a god in human form. That didn’t really sit well with Christians, for some reason.

    First I acknowledged in history all dominant religions have persecuted other people of different beliefs. So early Christians were persecuted but they made it up as they spread thru Europe and the new world leaving the unconverted dead. This is what i was speaking of and you did a around end in your answer.

    “As for abortions being on the decline since 1990 – oh my. Yeah, marginally. There are 1.3 million abortions annually in the US alone.

    If we look at your original post you said have been billions of abortions. I know most people are not good at math but lets say the rest of the word triples that number and we round up to 4 million. It would take about 250 years for the first billion, So it’s pretty safe to say has not been billions of abortions.
    Once again more people die from war , famine, and disease so can we start worrying about the ones who were born?

    “Hitler was a master at subtlety. He pretended to be vegetarian to align himself with Gandhi (and under doctor’s orders); Christianity was another way of making himself appear legitimate.

    Guess what most people who are Christian don’t act Christian. It’s called hypocrisy (see republicans and conservative Christians)… It does not matter if he was Christian or not but he did use God just like Bush uses God to justify starting wars.

    “See, even Bush wasn’t acting in the name of God. He also got Congressional approval. 🙂 Did you forget that part?

    Did you forgot about the lies he told Congress and the people to change public opinion? Have you ever heard his speeches? He invokes God like ever other sentence.

    “Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t it the Christians who began the abolition movement? Yeah, those evil, violent Chistians wanted to free people.

    Umm.. I believe the South is really strong in the Christian thing and correct me if wrong but didn’t they use God and the Bible to justify slavery?

    Look we can go back and forth forever but you have to consider a few things and believe Matthew would agree with me. We tend to hit the Christians hard but only because they are the Dominant belief system here in America. When we refer to Christains you can use interchangeable with religion in general. Yes, Muslims and Jews have killed a lot of people also which is the point . Religion is the problem…. Individual briefs are fine but get a bunch of like minded people together with the same beliefs and usually bad things happen. I have said before Religion is man made and not of God. We just wish people would keep their spiritual beliefs to themselves and not push on other people and claim speak for God.

    Sorry this comment was long and not the most clear at times but damn tired and it’s late…

  21. Finally, if you don’t like my Wiki stats, get your own.

  22. I know most people are not good at math but lets say the rest of the word triples that number and we round up to 4 million.

    ROTFLMAO!!!

    Oh, only four million abortions annually in the whole world?

    My, my, you are so naive it’s really cute.

    China alone blows that out of the water: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-prchina.html

    I also never said billions annually. The US has had 45 million since 1973; what do you think that is for the rest of the world? With China and India, it’s obvious that number is well over a billion. Worldwide, ever – hell, yeah. Swamps the Crusades and the 20 people who died in the Salem Witch Trials.

    —-

    Fact: Most historians have Christianity related deaths through history estimated history at well over 100 million. I think that qualifies.

    Bulls-t! Provide a citation – I mean, I could throw around numbers without backing myself up and then we would be even. Really, get a freakin clue.

    I love it – deaths related to Christianity. So if someone slaughters Christians, and the Christians fight back, all of those deaths are “related to Christianity,” although the Christians did not start it.

    So here’s what we have at the end of that little tidbit of yours:
    1. Zero factual basis for an unfounded assertion;
    2. Even if the assertion were true, it’s so misleading as to be useless.

    As for Bush and “holy war,” what about the prior infighting in Iraq? What about the fact that Congress approved the war?

    You never mentioned how CONGRESS, and people like John Kerry and Hillary Clinton, voted for the war. Without them, no war, no matter what Bush wanted. (Hillary, by the way, has a terrible habit of having men pull the wool over her eyes. First the lies and cheating by her husband, then President Bush. Poor little thing.)

    Why do you say they are lies, incidentally? Even if so, CONGRESS APPROVED THE WAR FOR NON-RELIGIOUS REASONS. It isn’t a religious war; read the freakin Constitution. Bush doesn’t have that power, and no President does.

    Umm.. I believe the South is really strong in the Christian thing and correct me if wrong but didn’t they use God and the Bible to justify slavery?

    1. Just because they used it as justification does not mean that it was the motivation. The motivation was money, pure and simple.
    2. That’s even assuming they used it as justification. England stayed out of the slavery thing for Christian reasons. I’m sure that TotalTransformation (www.totaltransformation.wordpress.com) could give you more info, as he’s an antebellum South scholar, working towards his PhD.

    When we refer to Christains you can use interchangeable with religion in general. Yes, Muslims and Jews have killed a lot of people also which is the point . Religion is the problem….

    Then say RELIGION. When you are talking world history and say “Christianity,” you’ve lost any and all claims to be only speaking of America and its dominant religion.

    —-

    Let’s also note the peaceful things Christians have done in the name of their God. Alcoholics Anonymous is based on Christian principles. The abolition movement. The pro-life movement. Charitable giving. Hospitals. Food pantries. Mission trips, where people build houses for inhabitants of third-world countries.

    It does not matter if he was Christian or not but he did use God just like Bush uses God to justify starting wars.

    Omigod, you make my head hurt. There is nothing inherent in Christianity that makes people do this. In fact, the Bible is pretty freakin explicit that you aren’t supposed to do these things. For Christians, pretty much the worst thing you can do is to kill someone before he has a chance to accept the Saviour. Read the Ten Commandments and Ephesians.

    Judge any ideology by its merits, not its followers – especially not the occasional whack job tag-alongs. What you are doing is so intellectually dishonest.

    Men are the ones committing all these brutal acts – Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Saddam, Osama, (arguendo) Bush, etc etc. So am I to assume that men are inherently violent? inherently bad? inherently war-like? Does the y-chromosome provide its own justification for war, as all of the war-lords have y-chromosomes?

    We just wish people would keep their spiritual beliefs to themselves and not push on other people and claim speak for God.

    Atheism – that definitive statement about the existence and nature of a higher being – is a religion, too.

    Fact: Most states in the ‘bible belt’ endorse the death penalty. In fact, in states where there are more Christians per capita, the death penalty is used most.

    So? Statistics show that the death penalty reduces violence.

    Fact: The Christians were indeed instrumental in starting the abolitionist movement, however it was the same Christians in Westerm Europe who started the slave trade and built the ‘Golden Triangle’. Given how things have turned out between blacks and whites in America over the past 200 years, I’d say things really haven’t worked out all that well – would you?

    Again, you make my head hurt. Can I give my LSAT classes your arguments as examples of logical errors in reasoning?

    Your argument is what Chistians do, which is totally b.s. (See my male analogy above). What you should focus on – in order to obtain the requisite causal connection between the characteristic and the action – is what Christians do qua Christians, not what people do who may self-identify as Christians, or who live among Christians.

    You further blame the abolitionists for race relations. While you’re at it, why don’t you blame feminists for gender relations? Furthermore, let’s retreat to the days of slavery, because the race relations were better. Or should we send them back to Africa?

    Western Europeans who wanted slaves were acting in their own economic interests. They were not saying, “It is our duty and calling as servants of Jesus our Saviour to enslave a continent full of people.” They thought – yay, cheap labour! You cannot blame that on Christianity, any more than you can blame it on the “condition” of being male, tall, short, well-educated, or having knowledge of boats. Why not, while you’re at it, say that sailors are inherently violent? After all, most wars were fought wtih the help of ships.

  23. Reverse Mortgage advantages: 1) avoid having to make payments, 2) cash out money upfront and still collect monthly distribution on the equity, 3) no qualifying loan. Disadvantages: 1) slightly higher closing fees, 2) fewer choices on the terms of the loan, 3) have to qualify for the loan. In this situation most borrowers have plenty of equity and the though of not having to worry about mortgage payments may be the deciding factor.

  24. MJ "revoltingpawn"

    theobromophile…

    You are going off the deep end…

    “China alone blows that out of the water:

    Yep left China out of it since is a special case. They have four billion people and a serious population problem. Abortions are a needed evil there. They have social problems we can’t relate to but we will be facing the same problems as China in 20 years. People will not be having unwanted children so get over it. Education and contraception could be a answer but wait most Christians are against that also.

    “Just because they used it as justification does not mean that it was the motivation. The motivation was money, pure and simple. That’s even assuming they used it as justification. England stayed out of the slavery thing for Christian reasons.

    These statements are so wrong were to begin. Of course the people of south used their Religion to justify slavery. Think they were able to look at themselves in the mirror by saying I own salves to make a buck? No Christians at the time taught that Man (White people) were given domain over the world and and the animals (black people). Their faith gave them a clear conscious.

    Oh so you are saying England was a good example of good Christians? Guess never heard of the British Empire. By the way empires are built on war and enslavement of whole people and nations. Millions died because of Christian expansion. That was also how Christianity was spread around the world by forced conversation. You still have no answerers for that…

    “CONGRESS APPROVED THE WAR…

    I already covered that by informing you that vote was based on lies from George Bush. The majority of Congress and the people do not support the War now. This is George’s War and only came about because of him. No George and their be no War. The minority that still does support the war are his base which are hard core Christians. Once again George always invokes God when talking about the War to make us feel good about it.

    “Let’s also note the peaceful things Christians have done in the name of their God

    Nobody has said their are not Good Christians just like their are good Muslims, Jews, and atheists. What does alarm us are all the hypocritical Christians and the increasing imposing of Christian values on everyone in this nation.

    “Atheism – that definitive statement about the existence and nature of a higher being – is a religion, too.

    That is just total nonsense. I know it is hard to understand that some people don’t need Religion to tell them right form wrong and to give them purpose in life. Atheism is just a philosophy that deals with the God . Religion is a social construction that goes beyond a mere philosophy. I happen to be agnostic (who does believe in God) but I am not part of a “religion”.

    “So? Statistics show that the death penalty reduces violence

    Huh!? You must know that in Britain and most of Western Europe does not have capital punishment and we wish had similar violent crime rates as them. is in the top five for violent crimes.
    According to government stats violent crime has been deceasing since 1994.

    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict.htm

    Texas which kills more people then anyone has been lagging behind that rest of the county on that trend.

    Ok enough of this…

  25. Theo and I have tangled with the “China needs abortions” nonsense before… I’m not going there again. That’s ridiculous.

    Taking an Ann Coulter quote about “perfection” (a term which you apparently haven’t yet grasped in the context of Christianity and she explained well enough) and how America would be better off if everyone were Christian (I, being Christian, happen to agree) does not connect with Christians being murderers. If as a Christian, I did not believe my religion was the only way, I would not have any reason to believe my religion was valid. Why follow something that’s not really considered to be supreme truth? (And if you say there is no such thing as absolute truth, you might want to say it out loud to yourself several times and then you might realize how self-negating that statement is.) That said, violence is not a means of conversion.

    Secondly, do NOT judge a religion by its abusers. NOWHERE in the Bible are Christians commanded to murder those who do not convert. Old Testament examples need not apply, because the situation is completely different where you have a nation engaging in military conquest against other nations that were, quite frankly, disgustingly evil in their behavior. (Yeah, human sacrifice to unkown Gods counts as evil, dude.) Christian conquest is not military in nature, but rather of the heart. Those who say that they are “commanded by God” to commit murder and directly cause pain and suffering to the innocent are in fact nothing more than what the Bible refers to and warns against as “false prophets.” The Quran, on the other hand?

  26. MJ "revoltingpawn"

    washedandforgiven…

    Agreeing with Ann Counter that “America would be better off if everyone were Christian” puts you at the highest level of ignorance. Since the root of most violence and murder is based on people’ thinking one’s culture, race, and/or religion is supreme. People tend not to be threaten by others who consider equal. We would be all better off realizing all religion is man made and not of God. This would mean no religion is supreme. It’s a simple concept but few can understand.

    We talk about the “abusers” of religion a lot since they seem to be the majority. Not sure why were referring to the murder in the Old testament.. This tread has been referring to real history of the more recent kind. We are only a Christian Nation because of the need for Christians to spread the faith around the world because it was “supreme”. Of course to spread a new faith one needs to conquer, murder, and enslave. Christians have been very adopt at that.

    If I believed in the Bible was the word of God would agree about “false Prophets”. They would be the “evangelical” conservative Christian leaders here.

    Not sure why referred to the Qur’an. Wonder if you ever read any of it.

  27. And I similarly wonder if you have read any of the Bible… and yes I have read some of the Quran. I doubt you have, however, because you would understand why I referenced the Quran and the Bible in pre-emption of common points liberals and atheists and anti-Christians make. Also, that people should be Christian was not my point. Her saying that does not make any connection whatsoever with your assertion that Christians are murderers.

    Do you have a source to prove that the “majority” of people CLAIMING to be Christian are responsible for death, heartache, suffering, etc? And furthermore, how have the evangelical conservative Christian leaders distorted the Bible?

    Of course to spread a new faith one needs to conquer, murder, and enslave. Christians have been very adopt at that.

    Oh, really? You see, I was under the impression that was the reason the original founders of the country came to America… to get away from oppression. Funny how they just happened to be Christians… and where in U.S. history do you see Christians forcing their beliefs on anyone? Where in the Bible do you see Christians doing so? To cite Hitler and the Catholic Church during the dark ages doesn’t cut it, because, once again, their policies aren’t representative of what Jesus or the Bible taught.

  28. MJ "revoltingpawn"

    washedandforgiven…

    Ok i know you subconsciously feel guilty about your Christian history but please make some sense.

    I am read most of the Bible and have attended bible study in past attempted forced conversation by parents. I never said read the Qur’an just wondering why felt need to make off handed comment about.

    “Oh, really? You see, I was under the impression that was the reason the original founders of the country came to America

    Did forgot who they were being oppressed by? Other Christians!!! You just made my point! LOL Our founders then oppressed the Native Americans and yes many were forced to convert. When the slaves were bought here they made to convert. The whole new world was conquered and Christianity was made the established religion. Please less Bible and more real history book reading.

    Once again I am not referring to Christians who really do take the teaching of Jesus to heart. Jesus taught about giving up wealth and helping the poor and being tolerant of other people. I have heard to many sermons and seen to many scandals by “evangelical” conservative Christians to think really believe in Jesus. By the way Jesus never established a church when walked the earth. Hey neither of us believed in religion how ironic.

  29. MJ, you are correct when you say that neither Jesus nor yourself believe in religion. I don’t either… Jesus was teaching a relationship, and that’s the sad thing that many people don’t grasp. Also, you are correct that there are many who claim to be Christians who are involved in scandals and teach things that Jesus didn’t teach. However, a Christian is, by definition, a follower of Christ. If you think they didn’t really believe in Jesus than you need to make that decision based upon what Jesus taught. You obviously aren’t familiar with what Jesus taught, because nowhere will you find in his teachings that we are to be “tolerant” as liberals say it.

    It was not an offhanded comment about the Quran. It was a reminder that the Quran, unlike the Bible, teaches murder and torture for those who do not convert. Once again, you have provided no evidence whatsoever that those “Christians” who kill and torture are really in the majority, nor do you provide evidence that their philosophies line up with the Bible’s or Christ’s.

  30. Also, the “other Christians” that you refer to whom they were oppressed by were not really Christians. And, to be honest, you miss the fact that Christians don’t think they’re better, they find their perfection in being washed clean by Christ. True Christians recognize that their own righteousness is “as filthy rags.”

  31. MJ "revoltingpawn"

    Well we can end this debate since every response to historic events I have have pointed out when Christians were involved in violence, oppression, and war you will say “they were not really Christians” or just ignore.

    If we keep going we will get to you and 50 of your friends who are “Real” Christians. Why don’t you just say all murder in history has been done by Muslims, Jews, and atheists and end any doubt you are whacked. See you in Hell….

  32. They have four billion people and a serious population problem. Abortions are a needed evil there.

    Lord, if you are there, help me. China has a population of 1.3 billion people, not 4 billion.
    http://geography.about.com/od/populationgeography/a/chinapopulation.htm

    You’re only off by a factor of three – nothing big. (Eye roll.)

    Abortions are not a necessary evil. Why not emigrate to Russia, which is paying people to take the day off from work to make babies?
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20268426/

    By the way empires are built on war and enslavement of whole people and nations. Millions died because of Christian expansion. That was also how Christianity was spread around the world by forced conversation. You still have no answerers for that…

    Nor have you any proof. Nevertheless, here goes:
    You got your order of events wrong. The Roman Empire was established well before Constantine converted to Christianity in 312. Before then, Christians were persecuted throughout the Empire – so much for spreading the religion by violence! It was a religion popular among slaves and women – hardly the people capable of running about and forcing conversion upon others. Constantine issued the Edict of Milan, which prevented such persecution. Now, I guess in your twisted world, ending persecution by government fiat is violence. In my world, ending violence is a good thing. The purpose of the Edict of Milan was religious freedom.

    This tells us two important things:
    1. Christianity spread through a preexisting empire (ergo, it was not spread throughout the world by the method you claim); and
    2. The first thing a Christian ruler did was to ensure relilgious freedom and an end to violence.

    —–

    Now, you criticise me for saying that Christianity did not provoke the actions of murderers but do not make similar claims for anyone else.

    Look, you half-witted twit, I don’t have to. Your assertion: Christianity has killed more people than all other reasons combined. I don’t have to determine that Stalin’s atheism was the proximate cause of his slaughter of 100 million people; I only need to demonstrate that, by virtue of being an atheist, he was not slaughtering those people as a Christian. Ergo, those 100 million go into the “other” column.

  33. MJ "revoltingpawn"

    theobromophile…

    I swear the dumb comments will end sometime..

    “Lord, if you are there, help me. China has a population of 1.3 billion people, not 4 billion.

    You are correct and I was thinking about the fact that almost 1 out of 4 people in the world are Chinese. Of course this does not diminish the fact the Chinese have a serious over population problem.

    “Why not emigrate to Russia, which is paying people to take the day off from work to make babies?

    This has to be the dumbest thing ever heard. Ummm.. Did you get the OK from Russia for this? To make any impact on China they would need to ship at least 200 million young ones there. Trust me Russia does not not want Chinese babies but Russian ones. It was nice idea for you to make Chinese woman into a baby producing industary for Russia. Funny how you didn’t volunteer the US for these Chinese babies. How many can we sign you up for?

    Not sure why you keep asking for proof on the forced spread of Western and Christian culture. I have mentioned the British Empire and American Imperialism. Countless nations and people were conquered and their culture lost with our culture to fill the vacuum. You have never addressed this but keep going back to later history limited to Europe.

    Since you need some help on research and like Wikipedia here you go… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_by_Christians

    A lot of Christian on Christian violence also…

    Here is a quote on that Edict of Milan from that entry…

    “When Constantine became the sole Roman Emperor in 323, Christianity became legal by the Edict of Milan. After the death of Constantine in 337, two of his sons, Constantius II and Constans took over the leadership of the empire. Constans, ruler of the western provinces, was, like his father, a Christian.

    Constans was killed in 350, and soon after his brother became the sole emperor of the entire empire three years later. Constantius, also a Christian, decreed that all pagan temples in the empire be immediately closed. He warned that anyone who dared still offer sacrifices of worship to the once-revered gods and goddesses in these temples were to be put to death. Similarly, any governor to refused to enforce this decree was also to be punished.”

    So yes Christian persecution ended but if read further on that part of the entry the violence did not stop.

    Please read the whole entry and other periods of history….

    So Christian oppression and murder has never happened?

    Eye opening article on how the Native American culture was assimilated to ours…
    http://www.amnestyusa.org/amnestynow/soulwound.html

    “I don’t have to determine that Stalin’s atheism was the proximate cause of his slaughter of 100 million people; I only need to demonstrate that, by virtue of being an atheist, he was not slaughtering those people as a Christian. Ergo, those 100 million go into the “other” column.

    On Stalin, I will use the same defense you and washedandforgiven use when I point out Christian murder and oppression. Stalin was not a “real” Atheist….

    I like how are keeping score like the mass murders of human history is a football game.

  34. Attention all Christians posting in this thread…

    A list of historical facts that can be verified at any local library confirming that Christians are the most murderous and violent people afoot for the past 1500 years…

    Saint Augustine’s cognite intrare (“lead them in”—i.e. “force them to convert”). In fact the Qur’an says the exact opposite: There is no compulsion in religion ( 2:256 ). Augustine’s frightening idea that all must be compelled to “conform” to the “true Christian faith” has unleashed centuries of unparalleled bloodshed. Indeed, Christians have suffered more under the rule of Christian civilization than under pre- Christian Roman rule or any other rule in history. Millions were tortured and slaughtered in the name of Christianity during the periods of the Arian, Donatist and Albigensian heresies

    The Crusades The European armies were saying, as they slaughtered both Christian and Muslim Arabs: “Kill them all, God will know his own.”

    Europe’s Reformation and Counter Reformation Era Two thirds of the Christian population of Europe was slaughtered by Christians

    The African slave trade Claimed the lives of 10 million

    The Colonial Conquests Estimates for the number of Native Americans slaughtered by the Europeans in North, Central and South America run as high as 20 million within three generations.

    The 20 th century’s Western Civilization took warfare to new extremes A conservative estimate puts the total number of brutal deaths in the 20 th century at more than 250 million. Of these, Muslims are responsible for less than 10 million deaths. Christians, or those coming from Christian backgrounds account for more than 200 million of these!

    The greatest death totals come from World War I (about 20 million, at least 90 % of which were inflicted by “Christians”) and World War II ( 90 million, at least 50% of which were inflicted by “Christians,” the majority of the rest occurring in the Far East).

    Given this grim history, it appears that we Europeans must all come to grips with the fact that Islamic civilization has actually been incomparably less brutal than Christian civilization. Did the Holocaust of over 6 million Jews occur out of the background of a Muslim Civilization?

    In the 20th century alone

    Western and/or Christian powers have been responsible for at least twenty times more deaths than have Muslim powers. In this most brutal of centuries, we created incomparably more civilian casualties than have Muslims in the whole of Islamic history.

    Rawanda, 1994 Witness the slaughter of 900,000 Rwandans in 1994 in a population that was over 90 % Christian

    1992-1995 Bosnia The genocide of over 300,000 Muslims and systematic rape of over 100,000 Muslim women by Christian Serbs

    Western popular culture It should also be mentioned that although Islam has the concept of legitimate war in self-defense (as does Christianity, and even Buddhism), nowhere in Islamic culture (or in other cultures that survive today) is there latent the idealization, and perhaps idolization, of violence that exists in Western Culture.

    Westerners think of themselves as peaceful, but in fact the gentleness and sublimity of the New Testament, and the peace-loving nature of the principles of democracy, are scarcely reflected in Western popular culture. Rather, the entire inclination of popular culture— Hollywood movies, Western television, video games, popular music and sports entertainment—is to glorify and inculcate violence.

    Accordingly, the relative rates of murder (especially random and serial murder) are higher in the Western World (particularly in the U.S., but even in Europe, taken as a whole) than they are in the Islamic world in counties that are not suffering civil wars, and this true despite the much greater wealth of the West.

    All of this hate and death takes place on a stage built by a Christian culture.

    In the end, if conservative Christians just read once in a while, they would look much less foolish to thinking people.

    I will be republishing this information in my next post

  35. Funny how you didn’t volunteer the US for these Chinese babies. How many can we sign you up for?

    See, this is why you are too freakin stupid to argue with. Every day is a new day – you have the attention span of a guppy.

    Your thesis:
    Abortion is a necessary evil, because the Chinese have too many people.

    My response: The Russians are complaining about having too few people. Why not go over there?

    Your response: why don’t you take in those kids?

    I can’t argue with people who don’t know the meaning of “context.” You are so freaking stupid it’s really unbelievable. I’ve never, ever debated anyone this moronic in my life.

    It was not an offhanded comment about the Quran. It was a reminder that the Quran, unlike the Bible, teaches murder and torture for those who do not convert. Once again, you have provided no evidence whatsoever that those “Christians” who kill and torture are really in the majority, nor do you provide evidence that their philosophies line up with the Bible’s or Christ’s.

    Washed & Forgiven nailed it. All you are capable of doing is repeating, ad nauseum, “Christians are violent! Christians are inherently violent!” That’s it. You’re a one-trick pony with the brain of a flea.

    You’ve been presented with stats, facts, figures, and a few choice Bible quotes. Yet, you don’t refute any of it with facts, statistics, figures, or Bible quotes; all you do is misrepresent reality.

    In your world, if Muslims slaughter Christians, it is because Chrsitians are inherently violent. When Christians try to reclaim land that invading Muslim armies took from them, they are inherently violent. When people who are nominally Christian do bad things, it’s because of their Christianity. If Christians kill 12 abortionists, they are more violent than the people who slaughter unborn children.

    Accordingly, the relative rates of murder (especially random and serial murder) are higher in the Western World (particularly in the U.S., but even in Europe, taken as a whole) than they are in the Islamic world in counties that are not suffering civil wars, and this true despite the much greater wealth of the West.

    That’s the dumbest thing I’ve heard in my life. Honestly. Wow – let’s remove every single Islamic country out there, because they are all bloodthirsty warmongers, and, without statistics, declare that they are peaceful daisy-pickers. You moron. Provide a meaningful statistic.*

    *On the average, every human has one testicle. That is not a useful statistic; in fact, it distorts the truth. Try finding one that actually represents reality. Reality: the Koran teaches violence, beheading, and torture for those who do not convert. It teaches that raping children is okay. Reality: the Bible teaches that violence against innocents is wrong. It mandates that Christians spread “The Good News” to others – i.e. good news, not delivered at the end of an axe, gun, or 747 being flown into a building. It mandates love for all of God’s children.

    On Stalin, I will use the same defense you and washedandforgiven use when I point out Christian murder and oppression. Stalin was not a “real” Atheist….

    You bloody imbicile.

    Unless YOU prove that Stalin murdered in the name of Christianity, he murdered for “other reasons.”

    You are, hands down, the dumbest person I’ve had the displeasure of meeting. You clearly have an axe to grind, which is why you are incapable of rational thought. You make statements like, “Christianity is responsible for more death than every other reason combined,” then get your panties in a twist when people mention deaths clearly unrelated to Chrsitianity.

    Get some statistics; get proof; get citations; and, once you do, apologise – because you’re dead wrong, buddy boy. Problem is, your apologetics for the bloodthirsty warlords give them justification for trying to kill us. I don’t want to end up dead because some whack job Muslim who reads the command to behead infidels thinks that killing me will get him 72 virgins. Yeah, find anything that sick in the New Testament, you freak.

  36. MJ "revoltingpawn"

    theobromophile…

    One you are not in a debate since you seem to be having conversation with yourself. You totally twist, misunderstand, and ignore what I have commented on this post.

    You now have gone on a personal attack and name calling rant… ( Real Christian of you..)

    YOUR FUTURE COMMENTS ON THIS POST WILL NOT BE APPROVED! COMMENTS ON OTHER POSTS WILL BE DECIDED CASE BY CASE.

    Oh one example from last post…

    “Unless YOU prove that Stalin murdered in the name of Christianity, he murdered for “other reasons.”

    I never said that about about Stalin.. What I said… “On Stalin, I will use the same defense you and washedandforgiven use when I point out Christian murder and oppression. Stalin was not a “real” Atheist….

    The second part of the first sentence I was referring to comments by you and others and not Stalin. Other readers of the past post comments would understand the sarcasm but oblivious you did not.

  37. Since you have decided to delete future comments by the bromophile, I’ll withdraw from the debate as well with this word.

    Let me remind you that merely because someone says they are something does not make them something. I can SAY I’m a Navy SEAL until I’m blue in the face, but that no more makes me one than any other joe on the street. The question is, do I have the things necessary to become a SEAL… have I been through all of the intensive training, passed the PT tests, learned how to work with my team and operate my weapons, and been approved by the U.S. government as a SEAL? If I have not, than I am not a SEAL. Similarly, if I do not meet the Biblical qualifications for being a Christian… then guess what? I’m not a Christian. I leave you with this quote from the Bible:

    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

  38. “You’ve been presented with stats, facts, figures, and a few choice Bible quotes. Yet, you don’t refute any of it with facts, statistics, figures, or Bible quotes; all you do is misrepresent reality.”

    theobromophile- A few choice bible quotes? Give me a break and do your homework, the bible is nothing but a jumbled mess of one bad translation after another. It was written by man and therefore subject to errors.

    You know what I think is funny? That idiots like you use quotes from the bible, picking and choosing to suit your cause, you know who else does that? The KKK, skin heads and hillbillys… yee haw for you… yee haw!

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